Why does Keen really do what he does?
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- Vortininja
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- VikingBoyBilly
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Oh, Mary sues can be good... some of the best characters of all time are sues. It's just very difficult to get it right. Princess ariel and Harry Potter are the first two that come to mind, and countless vidya characters like *gasp* commander keen? Ehh... I think keen just barely has enough characterization and flaws to get a pass on that (it's not many, though. He's basically made to be a wish-fulfillment stand-in for the player).Levellass wrote:Wait, is this an actual fanfiction?
But I must defend the Mary Sue, they are oft written bad, but they need not be so.Is not Luke Skywalker one? Some random guy out in the sticks who finds out he's actually a prince and from a family of space wizards and he's got to singlehandedly bring down he Big Bad. (And his dad is evil! He wears all black all the time!) He maters everything he tires, from the light saber to being able to make one-in-a-million shot to destroy the Big Evil Thing. And let's steer clear of other 'chosen one' characters, many of whom fit right in the Sue Shoes.
I think one of the tricks is there has to be a sense that the other characters get just as much love and attention from the author as their equals, like Mortimer McMire and the dopefish. You could tell if Keen was a bad sue if Mortimer was made out to be another idiotic, one-dimensional moustache-twirling villain, for instance. Well, I guess they're both kinda one-dimensional, but Mortimer is pretty badass (not like Bowser and Dr. Robotnic who have decayed into jokes).
But then there's fringe cases, like Bella Swan. Twilight is technically an original canon work, right? But... it's so fanfictiony and bella is so sue-ish... what is it? I heard people call it a Buffy fanficion, and if I were to take a crack I'd say Dracula fanfiction, but I don't even think it's that. It's more derivative of crappy romances than anything that's about vampires. What is Bella? Was the story actually supposed to be about Edward, but Bella was "injected" into it to infect his story? But Edward is kind of a stu himself... was this suppsoed to be a story about the cullens and the quileutes? It's so blurry and dillhuted it's hard to tell.Plasma Captain wrote:I always thought that the problem with Mary Sues is that they're injected into franchises with existing "hero" characters. So you've already got the super smart magic teenager who's destined to save the world, and then some kid writes a fanfiction with their own original character who also happens to be super smart and magical and destined to save the world alongside the original character. That's why it's annoying - the character doesn't really fit, and it feels like a fan's delusional self-insert.
People have gotten into a bad habit in recent years of mislabeling characters as "Mary Sues". It's not a Mary Sue if it's part of the original story. The only case that could be made is if it's something like, for example, you're literally a new comic writer for an existing franchise and you decide to inject yourself into the storyline. What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is the fact that it's injected. Otherwise, Superman would be a Mary Sue, and he's not... he's just a poorly-conceived fantasy character.
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass
Hmmmmn.... does Keen count? There's a bit to it, his incredible IQ and achievements, his all-black wearing, near-identical nemesis... but I don't think he's fleshed out enough to be Sueish; his intelligence is just something that's there. he made a spaceship out of junk, so what? It's just a device to get the plot moving. Keen would need more fluff.
And where is the line? If I write a story about the amazing Sarah W. who discovers then saves a land of magical unicorns with her sheer specialness that's not a sue by your definition since the work is original. The actual character traits and construction don't matter, just the origin.
But we already have a term for that, 'fan character' (Or 'fan insert' or 'self insert'.) What defines a Mary Sue is their improbable success, the way the rules don't seem to apply to them.
I don't know, that sets two classes of character, Original which is better no matter how cruddy it is and Fan which is always of lesser quality no matter how good it is.Plasma Captain wrote:I always thought that the problem with Mary Sues is that they're injected into franchises with existing "hero" characters. So you've already got the super smart magic teenager who's destined to save the world, and then some kid writes a fanfiction with their own original character who also happens to be super smart and magical and destined to save the world alongside the original character. That's why it's annoying - the character doesn't really fit, and it feels like a fan's delusional self-insert.
People have gotten into a bad habit in recent years of mislabeling characters as "Mary Sues". It's not a Mary Sue if it's part of the original story. The only case that could be made is if it's something like, for example, you're literally a new comic writer for an existing franchise and you decide to inject yourself into the storyline. What makes a Mary Sue a Mary Sue is the fact that it's injected. Otherwise, Superman would be a Mary Sue, and he's not... he's just a poorly-conceived fantasy character.
And where is the line? If I write a story about the amazing Sarah W. who discovers then saves a land of magical unicorns with her sheer specialness that's not a sue by your definition since the work is original. The actual character traits and construction don't matter, just the origin.
But we already have a term for that, 'fan character' (Or 'fan insert' or 'self insert'.) What defines a Mary Sue is their improbable success, the way the rules don't seem to apply to them.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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But a Mary Sue is generally recognized as equivalent to a self-insert, and the term is derived directly from Star Trek fanfiction that did just that.
Example:
Superman is not a Mary Sue. He's super strong, super smart, nigh invincible and seems to have an endless array of powers and skills, but he's not really meant to be a flawless stand-in for the author in a self-servicing story.
Mary Sue, another Kryptonian who secretly also survived planet's destruction, and also has all of Superman's powers and is also his lover and sometimes slaps around Lois Lane when she gets too close, is obviously a Mary Sue because she is a clear fanfiction fantasy for the author.
Also, I did say that it doesn't only apply to fanfiction. There have been cases where a new writer has taken over an existing comic book franchise and has created really weird and uncharacteristic situations. Generally these Mary Sue things revolve around some kind of forced romance with the protagonist(s) or a powerful character who matches or even exceeds the already ridiculously powerful protagonist(s).
It just doesn't make sense to call every superhuman character a Mary Sue because that severely corrupts the original intent of the term, and because most characters in action-oriented fiction are superhuman anyway... Even in more "realistic" settings, wherein the good guy can fight for like ten minutes and beat a bunch of guys up while taking a bunch of hits and nobody dies or gets a broken bone somehow.
Example:
Superman is not a Mary Sue. He's super strong, super smart, nigh invincible and seems to have an endless array of powers and skills, but he's not really meant to be a flawless stand-in for the author in a self-servicing story.
Mary Sue, another Kryptonian who secretly also survived planet's destruction, and also has all of Superman's powers and is also his lover and sometimes slaps around Lois Lane when she gets too close, is obviously a Mary Sue because she is a clear fanfiction fantasy for the author.
Also, I did say that it doesn't only apply to fanfiction. There have been cases where a new writer has taken over an existing comic book franchise and has created really weird and uncharacteristic situations. Generally these Mary Sue things revolve around some kind of forced romance with the protagonist(s) or a powerful character who matches or even exceeds the already ridiculously powerful protagonist(s).
It just doesn't make sense to call every superhuman character a Mary Sue because that severely corrupts the original intent of the term, and because most characters in action-oriented fiction are superhuman anyway... Even in more "realistic" settings, wherein the good guy can fight for like ten minutes and beat a bunch of guys up while taking a bunch of hits and nobody dies or gets a broken bone somehow.
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- Vortininja
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Then Keen is definitely one. Tom has mentioned plenty of times in interviews that Commander Keen is based off of himself when he was a kid.Plasma Captain wrote:But a Mary Sue is generally recognized as equivalent to a self-insert
I know my Keen facts.
Equivalent? But that hardly makes any sense. A self insert is self explanatory, it's a character that is based solely or closely on the author, it's a definition by origin. Indeed that covers canon characters too.
Trope dictionary TVTropes states 'The self-insert is very often a Mary Sue – in matter of fact, the original Mary Sue (she who gives that trope its name) was born from a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic. ' The definition there is solid, concise.
MS however seems poorly defined, it's been weaponized as an insult against anything people don't like. TVT again states: 'In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature. ' and 'Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). '
Also, it seems there's a lot of argument over whether males can be included as Sues or if they're automatically better somehow. This leads me to believe that a lot of this discussion is total garg dust.
In the end I think what makes a Sue is that the laws of the story bend around them to extremes. They're not just pretty, they're perfectly pretty. They're not just smart but amazingly so, Not just liked but adored by all. Not just unlucky but pitifully unlucky. (Their mom was raped to death by their vampire dad who then chocked to death on their only friend, a puppy.)[/i]
Trope dictionary TVTropes states 'The self-insert is very often a Mary Sue – in matter of fact, the original Mary Sue (she who gives that trope its name) was born from a parody of the standard Self-Insert Fic. ' The definition there is solid, concise.
MS however seems poorly defined, it's been weaponized as an insult against anything people don't like. TVT again states: 'In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature. ' and 'Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). '
Also, it seems there's a lot of argument over whether males can be included as Sues or if they're automatically better somehow. This leads me to believe that a lot of this discussion is total garg dust.
In the end I think what makes a Sue is that the laws of the story bend around them to extremes. They're not just pretty, they're perfectly pretty. They're not just smart but amazingly so, Not just liked but adored by all. Not just unlucky but pitifully unlucky. (Their mom was raped to death by their vampire dad who then chocked to death on their only friend, a puppy.)[/i]
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
- VikingBoyBilly
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Allow me to dig up Limyaeel's Rant #337: Things That Really Infuriate Limyaeel point number 1:
Limyaeel wrote:1) Characters that exist only as shells and shadows and satellites of the hero.
This is number fucl one. This is the one that makes me want to vomit just reading the descriptions of books, never mind whole novels. This is the reason that the moment any story now starts out with an abused orphan whom everyone hates, I scream and run away, immediately.
Now, I’ve complained about stupid villains and henchman and characters like Wise Old Mentors who only exist as plot devices before. This is related to them. It is not them. (“For stupid villains and henchmen and characters like Wise Old Mentors who only exist as plot devices, please press button #3”).
This is characters who have no inner life, no separate existence or conception of their own existence. This is characters who exist solely to serve as mirrors, cheerleaders, minor petty obstacles, validation, and rewards for the hero/ine.
Shall I give you a few examples?
Designated Love Interests.
foils who are the “dark mirrors” to the hero.
the random kitchen maid who shows up to talk to the hero just as he’s feeling down.
the character who gets wounded just to give the protagonist a chance to demonstrate compassion.
the jealous bitch/bastard who changes into a worshipper of the hero/ine the moment he or she does something “noteworthy.”
the party companions who never seem to eat, drink, or sleep in case the heroine wants to talk to them, and who think more about whether she’s having regular sex than whether they’re making progress towards saving the world.
the siblings who are in the story only to get compared un/favorably with the protagonist in terms of intelligence, magical talent, and looks.
the village bully who’s obsessed with raping the heroine for unknowable reasons and then at the end is shoved face-down into the dirt when the heroine rides back into town on her white horse.
the parental figure who, by requiring any sort of discipline from her child whatsoever, is an “abusive mother.”
the character of a different social class or race who follows the protagonist around like a puppy, supposedly demonstrating he can pierce those kinds of barriers, and in reality conjuring up the worst sorts of stereotypes.
I could go on. I have tons of these.
At least stupid Dark Lords who are trying to take over the world have their motivations that are separate from the protagonist. At least stupid henchmen fear their boss, and don’t suddenly become obsessed with whether the heroine will win her guy. At least Wise Old Mentors are usually represented as caring more about the fate of the world than whether the hero/ine gets validation.
These characters have no reason to exist in the story, except to make the hero/ine feel good or prop her up or wipe away any tiny trace of a mistake. And that is so fucl stupid I cannot get my mind around it. Real people have their own minds, their own motivations–even if they’re romantically obsessed. They are not blank templates to be stamped with serving the fucl protagonist, and not even the fucl plot.
JUST fucl STOP IT. PLEASE.
No, I am not rational on this. Yes, I have undoubtedly enjoyed books in the past that had these kinds of characters–because I didn’t classify them that way. If I feel like a character has independent existence, even if it’s in the gaps between the lines, I am willing to let it go. I cannot tolerate a story where the author explicitly reveals to me that random people with no reason to trust or love or care about her would get down on the floor and lick up the heroine’s garg if she asked them to.
Stop it, stop it, stop it. Stop loving your protagonists so much you make them the center of the universe. Stop using other characters to give them everything they want. Stop making them so unique in the world that they deserve everything in return for their uniqueness. Stop conceiving of your other characters only in relation to them.
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass
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Sheesh, you guys. "Equivalent" was just a bad word choice. I meant that all Mary Sues are basically self-inserts, not that all self-inserts are Mary Sues. I apologize for my ineloquent and inarticulate argument.
VBB's quotation basically describes what a Mary Sue is. Its interactions with other characters only serve to try to make the Mary Sue more "endearing" or "perfect".
Look, I suppose you could make an argument for Mary Sues existing in original canon, but it just seems to open up a huge opportunity for people to be annoying assholes. In my mind, by the original definition, it makes the most sense because that's where you're most likely to find a Mary Sue - in fanfiction written by somebody who is probably never going to publish anything unless it's drippy with irony.
And yes, Mary Sues can be men or agender or whatever. Anybody who says otherwise is a fucl sexist. Doesn't even make any sense as an argument.
VBB's quotation basically describes what a Mary Sue is. Its interactions with other characters only serve to try to make the Mary Sue more "endearing" or "perfect".
Look, I suppose you could make an argument for Mary Sues existing in original canon, but it just seems to open up a huge opportunity for people to be annoying assholes. In my mind, by the original definition, it makes the most sense because that's where you're most likely to find a Mary Sue - in fanfiction written by somebody who is probably never going to publish anything unless it's drippy with irony.
And yes, Mary Sues can be men or agender or whatever. Anybody who says otherwise is a fucl sexist. Doesn't even make any sense as an argument.
- VikingBoyBilly
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This is conveniently recent: MrEnter's definition of a Mary Sue.
"I don't trust players. Not one bit." - Levellass
Well that's the problem. 'Mary Sue', even with the original definition is used as a pejorative. It's now almost synonymous with 'Character I don't like' that can be flung at nearly any fanfic you want. I doubt adding canon would change much now. (As it is canon has its own terms, jumping the shark say, or the scrappy.)Plasma Captain wrote:Look, I suppose you could make an argument for Mary Sues existing in original canon, but it just seems to open up a huge opportunity for people to be annoying assholes.
But all things aside to me John Galt is a Mary Sue and always will be. Read the book guys.
What you really need, not what you think you ought to want.
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