Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

You can discuss anything about fan-made Commander Keen games here.

How do you feel about a full Atroxian Realm sequel?

Absolutely want one
26
87%
Probably interested
1
3%
Maybe interested
0
No votes
Probably not interested
1
3%
Don't want/need a sequel
2
7%
 
Total votes: 30

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Levellass
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Levellass » Mon Jul 17, 2017 1:56

Well this is getting over my head. *Goes back to the patch corner*
Gridlock wrote:
Sat Jul 15, 2017 20:32
Going with Unity would definitely give me the most freedom. It's just that there's a lot of challenges in getting the engine working. I'm fairly convinced that patches won't be robust enough (sorry Lass).
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Sat Jul 15, 2017 12:21
Keen 58 and 59 with the original Keen sprite - is it possible?!? :begging
Oh yes, that'd be the simplest scenario, a basic two-player type thing. I've DONE that. The tricky part would be redoing the story graphics to explain why Keen is 8 again.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Gridlock » Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:35

Some more ideas popped into my head:

Character abilities (activated with the "pogo" key):

Janitor: "geezer time"- a temporary slow-motion mode that could be activated. However, bullets would move faster than their usual slow-motion speed, effectively giving the player a combat advantage.

Lindsey: glide- while jumping or falling, the player could activate glide, stopping all vertical movement and allowing the player to glide left and right. Pressing the key again would cause lindsey to fall down.

Spot: "spotty vision"- allows the player to see secret passageways and maybe even secret markings on walls.

Barker: ankh time- the player can create a temporary bubble around Barker that lasts 5-10 seconds, but only while standing still on the ground. The player might still be able to shoot left/right/up while the bubble is activated. I'm thinking no movement while the ankh bubble is active because that just makes things too easy.

Still not sure how character switching would work. Maybe you can switch characters at any time while standing on the ground. Maybe there are specific character swap points. Or, gasp :mort2, maybe all the characters would be in the scene at once and have a.i. to move around with you :dead

------------------------------------------

If I go Unity, I've also been brainstorming some other gameplay changes that might be cool to see:

No lives- Maybe it's time to ditch extra lives. They served a bit more purpose in Atroxian Realm with the checkpoints, but I think it would be better just to give the player unlimited tries.

A health system- One hit kills have been synonymous with Keen, but why not try something else? Maybe Keen could have a health bar with multiple segments, or "VITALs" in this system. Vitalin pickups could restore Keen's health, and rare kegs o' vitalin could increase your maximum health. Some hazards would still be insta-kills, though.

Multiple weapons- Why not expand Keen's arsenal to include the raygun/pistol from Keen Vorticons as well as something like boobus bombs from Keen Dreams and Netkeen? The raygun could be stronger but have much rarer ammo, and the boobus bombs could be good for breaking down enemy armor as well as revealing secrets in walls.

Limited ammo- Seems like ammo is always impossible to balance in Keen games. On easy mode you can sometimes reach 1000+ shots, while on hard you can be fighting to have any at all. Perhaps a max ammo cap could solve this. However, there might be items that would increase your max ammo. I think I read that Ceilick was considering a max ammo mechanic for Sign of the Vool, and I'm thinking it might make sense here too.

Changing in-game saves- I've always felt that in-level saves break the game design and are really only necessary because of one-hit kills and the lack of checkpoints. A new save system could fix this by restricting saves to the world map (if there is one) or specific save stations in levels.

"Genius" mode- A very unimportant but still cool idea. It would basically be an extra hard difficulty mode with changes to the level design and other systematic changes, unlocked after beating the game on any difficulty.

In-game store- This is a pretty drastic change and is taking some inspiration from more modern games (think the Merchant from Resident Evil 4). You would encounter a character frequently throughout the game that would sell you items and upgrades in exchange for your points. These could range from simple ammo and health refills to upgrades like increasing your max health or max ammo capacity. Or, maybe each character has improvements to their abilities that could be unlocked for a price. Example: spend 100,000 points to increase the length of Barker's ankh time.

Speaking of this merchant character, I just came up with an idea/design. Kinda fits since you're basically selling him your candy. Say hello to Smirks:

Image


These are pretty drastic changes to the Keen formula, and I'm curious how people would respond to these. Would they keep the formula fresh and remove some of the problems with the original games (in-level saves, one-hit kills, points being useless), or would they be too much of a departure? If I go Unity, these are definitely ideas I'll consider.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by KeenRush » Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:32

Definitely interested in the sequel. Certainly wanting it to appear.

I'm also in the camp that's rooting for the DOS-based engine. First of all, because of the feel of the game, which I think will be extremely difficult to capture in other systems (like Unity). Logically it's of course not impossible, but difficult, especially if you're not a programmer that's very good at porting old code. Secondly, because of the art of old school itself. I find it so much more interesting what can be done with the limitations of the old engines and processor speeds. With newer systems more or less anything can be done, no matter how inefficient your code is, no matter how bloated your data files. I adore the challenge in limitations, the creativity it takes.

Also. If you're having the source to that engine, I can't see why it couldn't be modified to feature everything you need. Those features might not be all that complex to make. Shaders might be a bit more tricky, 3d objects more so, but particle effects should be easier. Obviously, it might be impossible to use these things extensively, everywhere in the level -- but how important are they, anyway? You've done amazing, atmospheric work totally without those advantages. Those other things seem easier, in my opinion. I can't see why multiple playable characters couldn't be done. The effect might not be the smoothest, it might take one second to load the data in case it all can't be kept in the memory (in the most extreme slowest scenario). If there's a whole engine already up and running, I can't see this feature being very difficult to add. Keep the player graphics data in separate files (one for each character), in a format that's extremely simple to read and decode. Reading such a file after selecting a character from a pop-up menu shouldn't be all that difficult. The different powers for different characters is a cool idea, and likewise might not be all that complicated if having an engine source.

My suggestion might be that work on something else in Unity, a game you could sell if you want to. (It's worth keeping in mind that most games won't make sh1t, no matter how good they are. Sure, an extra 1000 dollars (if you're really lucky) would be nice, but it won't pay the bills except for one month.) Then, on your spare time (or vice versa), work on that Atroxian sequel, in a DOS engine, and embrace the challenge of it. Working with more limits will surely influence you to make better work with the other non-limited game.

Like Levellass, I'm modding for my own good. There's something in it I can't get from any other activity. I could write a new Keen game or engine, but I don't care about that. I don't care to mod anything else than Keen. And I don't care about the ordinary masses. Why would I? I can imagine few things more repulsive than a group of ten thousand players that flap their thumbs on a mobile screen, playing a game that is by default sh1t because you can't make good real platform controlling on mobile phone, most of them spending five minutes on your product that took years or months to make. I rather have the Keener audience, which is amazing. I can't imagine a more satisfying audience than Keeners. The level of engagement is quite something (thank you everyone, once again!). Let's take your recent level pack, for example. I played like 6 to 8 hours straight, and it wasn't even a mod with all new creatures and graphics. When a new mod drops, most folks here play hours and hours of it, no matter how challenging it is. Ordinarly these days you might get the same level of obsession only with titles that cost millions to make.

Also, I think these things aren't going anywhere. If we keep even moderate care of our files, these productions will be played from here to infinity. Commander Keen has its place in history. That game was the og. It brought smooth, quality platforming to PC platform. Keen will be remembered, and rediscovered. Presence of all the quality mods will increase the audience for both the originals and all the mods. The audience, as emulating older systems becomes more and more easy and practical and generally known, will not be shrinking. I think there is something really worthwhile in working with Keen's limitations, palette, memory. Not to mention that most likely DOS binaries can be emulated in the far, far future. It's not a closed system in the way a game made for an Apple phone is. You might not get to run anything you make for that now, in ten years.

Personally, I don't care about that health system and multiweapon stuff. I love the simplicity in Keen and Crash Bandicoot (1 & 2) and Mario and the like: you know what you're doing, just by moving the player around. If you have some special mode on, you can clearly see it. When you shoot, you shoot with stunner, and if no shot appears, it means you have no ammo. If you touch something dangerous, you're dead. This is just a personal opinion, many other players like switching weapons or strategizing over hit points. The ideas of ammo limit and "genius" mode I like, however.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Gridlock » Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27

Appreciate the long thoughts there, Keenrush. Honestly, I just don't know yet. Given that even Atroxian Realm was pushing the CK Source mod to its limits in some ways (especially memory), I'm not sure it'll be enough for what I'd like to do (which I mostly haven't shared at this point). I've got some ambitious story sequences in mind that would be so much easier (and faster to implement) without a constraining engine.

For the last day or two I've been digging through the source code for both the CK Source mod and Omnispeak, but it's difficult to figure out certain things like how physics and framerate work. Even though all the code is there to be deciphered, I'm not seeing an easy way to transfer that logic directly into Unity's environment (preferably using MonoBehavior). But I'm not giving up anytime soon.

Speaking of Omnispeak, I just took a look, and I'm intrigued yet also a little confused. It appears that it still is compatible with many of the original Keen files, yet it runs entirely on reverse engineered code. I'm trying to figure out how much it actually is a modern engine (as opposed to CK Source mod, which still runs in DosBox). Does this mean that memory management code has been/could be rewritten to remove memory limitations? Could it be extended to support lots of new features (example: external music files)? It says it doesn't supporting modding as is, but I'm wondering if it could be a viable platform since it seems completely accurate to the originals.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by KeenRush » Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:37

Gridlock wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27
Appreciate the long thoughts there, Keenrush. Honestly, I just don't know yet. Given that even Atroxian Realm was pushing the CK Source mod to its limits in some ways (especially memory), I'm not sure it'll be enough for what I'd like to do (which I mostly haven't shared at this point). I've got some ambitious story sequences in mind that would be so much easier (and faster to implement) without a constraining engine.
Well, yeah, that's true. And by-passing limitations may require that 'old time programming skill', meaning optimization and getting low-level. It can get difficult.
Gridlock wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27
Even though all the code is there to be deciphered, I'm not seeing an easy way to transfer that logic directly into Unity's environment (preferably using MonoBehavior). But I'm not giving up anytime soon.
By the way, does it need to be close to the original? (Just throwing out ideas here.) Would alternate - yet reasonable and playable - physics be bad? If taking the whole new engine approach, it might not be all that bad. But I think it would require a new Keen sprite. The original Galaxy sprite is too associated with the Galaxy physics, in my opinion. Seeing it, you expect it to behave just the way you know it does. But with a new engine, with a new sprite, there would be no problem at all with different physics. After all, every platformer seems to have slightly different physics.
Gridlock wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:27
Does this mean that memory management code has been/could be rewritten to remove memory limitations? Could it be extended to support lots of new features (example: external music files)? It says it doesn't supporting modding as is, but I'm wondering if it could be a viable platform since it seems completely accurate to the originals.
Yes, it could be rewritten. Most likely that change would be really easy to make. I don't know the code so I can't say for sure, but I would guess that since it's running on a modern system with all that memory to use, extending memory to your needs might be as simple as extending the size of arrays and constants defining maximum sizes for things. So it might be just a few simple integer changers in the code. And its support for modding would be no problem since you'd be making a different version of the whole engine - there's no inherent difference between the original and modified/new data, the new would be just as valid.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Fleexy » Wed Jul 19, 2017 14:11

A cursory poke-around in the Omnispeak source seems to indicate that it uses the native memory allocation functions, so there should be no trouble with address space. The memory manager still has the concept of "blocks," which I think are slots for dynamically allocated objects in memory that store a bit of extra bookkeeping too. There is a fixed maximum number of blocks, but it shouldn't be a problem to define MAX_BLOCKS as something really high. To avoid guzzling too much memory, it might be good to evict very old blocks some time before running out, but again, that shouldn't be too big of a deal on modern systems.

I think using different game data would just be a matter of linking different graphics/map/audio headers. Alternatively, someone could without too much trouble make Omnispeak load those small files from disk.

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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by ComissionerDeWitt » Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:57

Like Levellass, I'm modding for my own good. There's something in it I can't get from any other activity. I could write a new Keen game or engine, but I don't care about that. I don't care to mod anything else than Keen. And I don't care about the ordinary masses. Why would I? I can imagine few things more repulsive than a group of ten thousand players that flap their thumbs on a mobile screen, playing a game that is by default sh1t because you can't make good real platform controlling on mobile phone, most of them spending five minutes on your product that took years or months to make. I rather have the Keener audience, which is amazing. I can't imagine a more satisfying audience than Keeners. The level of engagement is quite something (thank you everyone, once again!). Let's take your recent level pack, for example. I played like 6 to 8 hours straight, and it wasn't even a mod with all new creatures and graphics. When a new mod drops, most folks here play hours and hours of it, no matter how challenging it is. Ordinarly these days you might get the same level of obsession only with titles that cost millions to make.
[/quote]


Maybe you should be in the game as a character yourself. You could have the ability to mind-garg the enemies with your ability to write confusing essay comments :P

Also, way to make fun of mobile gamers, dude :/
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Plasma Captain » Thu Jul 20, 2017 16:15

It is objectively true, though, that traditional platformer controls just won't fly on a mobile device. Touch screen joysticks (and D-pads too!) are notoriously bad. As a developer, if you want your game to handle well with polish, your options for a 2D platformer are pretty much restricted to:

1) Tap the left or right side of the screen to move in that direction, tap up to jump, and maybe tap down to drop through platforms. Absolutely nothing else.

2) Use the accelerometer to move left/right and tap or shake to jump. Shaking for jumping allows an extra button or two for other features (shooting, etc.).

3) Option 2, but with auto-running instead of the accelerometer.

Attempting to implement classic gamepad controls on a touch screen is a recipe for disaster.

And additionally, like KeenRush said, the vast majority of the mobile gaming market isn't going to care for that sort of thing unless you're a big-name developer porting one of your earlier console releases onto a mobile platform... and even then, the controls are still probably going to be bad, lacking the finesse required to take advantage of the limitations of the device.

This is all neither here nor there though.

I understand the desire to mod Keen instead of rolling your own game, but, I also understand the desire to roll your own game. My personal preference is generally toward the latter, as I can determine my own restrictions, and I'm far less interested in the technical side of things as it is just a means to an end to me. Everybody has different likes and dislikes. Ultimately, I feel this matter should be settled by which route interests Gridlock at a personal level.

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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by ComissionerDeWitt » Thu Jul 20, 2017 17:30

Plasma Captain wrote:
Thu Jul 20, 2017 16:15
It is objectively true, though, that traditional platformer controls just won't fly on a mobile device. Touch screen joysticks (and D-pads too!) are notoriously bad. As a developer, if you want your game to handle well with polish, your options for a 2D platformer are pretty much restricted to:

1) Tap the left or right side of the screen to move in that direction, tap up to jump, and maybe tap down to drop through platforms. Absolutely nothing else.

2) Use the accelerometer to move left/right and tap or shake to jump. Shaking for jumping allows an extra button or two for other features (shooting, etc.).

3) Option 2, but with auto-running instead of the accelerometer.

Attempting to implement classic gamepad controls on a touch screen is a recipe for disaster.

And additionally, like KeenRush said, the vast majority of the mobile gaming market isn't going to care for that sort of thing unless you're a big-name developer porting one of your earlier console releases onto a mobile platform... and even then, the controls are still probably going to be bad, lacking the finesse required to take advantage of the limitations of the device.

This is all neither here nor there though.

I understand the desire to mod Keen instead of rolling your own game, but, I also understand the desire to roll your own game. My personal preference is generally toward the latter, as I can determine my own restrictions, and I'm far less interested in the technical side of things as it is just a means to an end to me. Everybody has different likes and dislikes. Ultimately, I feel this matter should be settled by which route interests Gridlock at a personal level.
I completely understand the controls problem and how the general public might not care problem, it's just the way he said that he didn't care for "the ordinary masses" and how he couldn't think of anything more repulsive than "thousands of mobile gamers flapping their thumbs on a phone screen " or whatever he actually said, that made me think "what the garg?".
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Zilem » Tue Aug 01, 2017 15:04

Multiple playable characters is a very interesting idea!
but if each character have an unique ability, and it's going to replace the pogo-stick it will have an impact on the level design
unless multiple character is for co-op, then the levels could be made in mind for each tool set working together puzzles to complete a level
Lost viking springs to mind, as each character had unique ability
Alex: Sprint, jump higher, tackle fragile objects/walls and breaking them
Baleog: Melee and Bow attack
Olaf: Shield wall (blocking all enemy attacks from shielded angle) or allow friends to stand above him, slow fall

Something that would require coordination of multi-players to complete level would be neat
even if each of their special abilities will be needed to solve them
and if lives were no issue and instead resting a player to a reset point opp on knock-out
the challenge will then depend on the unique solo pathways for each character instead

will there also be space for other Characters such as Kylie, Martinez and Marta?
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Gridlock » Tue Aug 01, 2017 19:05

Multiple playable characters is a very interesting idea!
but if each character have an unique ability, and it's going to replace the pogo-stick it will have an impact on the level design
unless multiple character is for co-op, then the levels could be made in mind for each tool set working together puzzles to complete a level
I'm pretty sure I won't be doing co-op for this. Not that it wouldn't be cool (I think there were even efforts a while back to make a co-op game using the Netkeen engine), but it's definitely not practical here, and I wouldn't want to take away from the single player experience.

I'll have to check out Lost Viking for reference, thanks. The single biggest question I have to answer first is how/when the player is able to switch between characters, since it's probably not feasible to code AI so that all the characters can follow the leader character around. It could either be specific swap points (Yoshi's Island DS is a good example of this), or instead an action that you could perform at any time by pressing a button (example: press enter while standing still to bring up the swap menu). This would have big ramifications on the design. On one hand, it would be neat to design situations in which swapping out the player character quickly is allowed. For example, during a boss battle, you'd have to switch between different character abilities to avoid attacks and damage the enemy. On the other hand, it's also harder to control the level design when players can switch out any time they want. Regardless, I would definitely like puzzles that take advantage of the different character abilities.

Narratively, it's also tricky to justify why there's only one character present at a time. Perhaps Keen has designed some kind of portal gadget that allows the other friends to hide in it and swap out? But then, what happens if the characters want to have a conversation mid-level? Do they all teleport back out? This gets confusing, and it might just require a bit of abstraction.
will there also be space for other Characters such as Kylie, Martinez and Marta?
Probably not. I personally don't have much interest in these other characters. I'd rather the story focus on the main five characters so that I can give them really fleshed out subplots and character arcs.
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Plasma Captain » Wed Aug 02, 2017 2:16

I never played through The Lost Vikings, but from what I understand, it's one of those games that works like this:
  • You have multiple characters in one level
  • You can quickly swap between which character is "active"; inactive characters just stand around
  • You must use all of your characters to solve puzzles and progress through the level
I remember playing a game or two like this in which the player characters were sometimes split up into different areas which were isolated and inaccessible to each other.

Something to keep in mind is that inactive characters can still be harmed by traps or monsters.

It's an interesting concept, though it can be tricky to work around the gimmick.

If you're that concerned about the meta elements interfering with the story, it might be best to just go with splitting the characters into different levels designed for them.

It is Keen, though; I don't personally feel like it's a big deal. You could even just hand-wave it as something caused by a malfunction or an enemy's device forcing them to be "stuck" together like this.

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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Zilem » Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:14

I Agree, Co-op should not come at the expense of Single player, as Co-op is meant to be the extension
as gaming is not an anti-social, as only media claims they are ;p
Gridlock wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 19:05
I'll have to check out Lost Viking for reference, thanks. The single biggest question I have to answer first is how/when the player is able to switch between characters, since it's probably not feasible to code AI so that all the characters can follow the leader character around. It could either be specific swap points (Yoshi's Island DS is a good example of this), or instead an action that you could perform at any time by pressing a button (example: press enter while standing still to bring up the swap menu). This would have big ramifications on the design. On one hand, it would be neat to design situations in which swapping out the player character quickly is allowed. For example, during a boss battle, you'd have to switch between different character abilities to avoid attacks and damage the enemy. On the other hand, it's also harder to control the level design when players can switch out any time they want. Regardless, I would definitely like puzzles that take advantage of the different character abilities.
If you want to see some gameplay of Lost Vikings
also Realms of Chaos, which i forgot to mention, where you swap between 2 characters
a Melee fighter and a sorceress that uses mana gems to cast fire bots, and you swap between them on the fly
(although you have to be on the ground)
both have their own health bars, the warrior was slightly tougher, while the sorceress was a slightly better jumper

Swap area points sounds like the checkpoints in "Jill in the Jungle"
it could also be like in Super Mario 2, where you selected a character before entering a level, or based on levels instead.
hmm... i don't think it would be bad to have at least one level, that would cater to other characters abilities
kind of like a crash course ^.~

Gridlock wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 19:05
Probably not. I personally don't have much interest in these other characters. I'd rather the story focus on the main five characters so that I can give them really fleshed out subplots and character arcs.
Fair enough ^.^
i'd should probably write some character into Kylie to make he more interesting then a female sprite swap for keen XD
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by KeenRush » Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:43

I've been thinking about the troop behaviour a bit. How about a system that stores Keen's x and y coordinates and frame from the past few seconds, for every frame per second unit, and whenever Keen moves, each in the troop will get some of his past coordinates and the matching frame in their own graphics (ie, right leg forward). The last in the troop would get coordinates two seconds away, the one right behind him would get half a second, etc. If Keen stops, everyone else stops too -- positions are taken from the buffer only when Keen is moving. If he dies, the troop would stop following his movements. Likewise, if he starts pogoing or shooting or other special activity the others don't have. Then they would stop following him. To get them following again, Keen would have to go near one of them, and walk normally. Maybe even have specifc button to use, to tell them to either follow or stop following? A funny idea would be to have it so that different characters have different authority; if player is Oracle Janitor and tries to command others, they wouldn't react, if Lt. Barker, they would. Anyway, this system doesn't work if something in the level changes suddenly after Keen goes past it, like a bridge falling, etc. (others would be just walking in the air then). Others would also need to have identical hitboxes (or at least no larger than Keen's, so that it's guaranteed they could follow Keen's route exactly). Maybe a way to distinguish characters could be that only the active character is fully coloured, and others are shadowed (and drawn before the active sprite so the active is most on foreground)? There probably are some logical problems in my idea that I didn't think of...
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Re: Early Atroxian Realm Sequel Thoughts

Post by Gridlock » Wed Aug 09, 2017 5:46

I've been thinking about the troop behaviour a bit. How about a system that stores Keen's x and y coordinates and frame from the past few seconds, for every frame per second unit, and whenever Keen moves, each in the troop will get some of his past coordinates and the matching frame in their own graphics (ie, right leg forward). The last in the troop would get coordinates two seconds away, the one right behind him would get half a second, etc.
It's an interesting idea that I'll consider, but I'm guessing the logical problems you mentioned could be a challenge. This probably isn't something I'll figure out immediately, but I'll keep thinking.

I haven't made any progress on finding an engine, but I did begin work on a title screen. Not positive this is what I'll go with in the end, but it's a start. I figured I'd share the first draft and see what you all think.

I suppose this is big news, because it means the reveal of the game's title. :O I wasn't planning until much later in a dedicated topic on the forum, but I decided there was no point in waiting. Doesn't mean the game will be done any faster (if at all). I give you: Commander Keen in Atroxian Realm: Voyage to Veota

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Of course, feedback and suggestions are welcome. The characters were a real struggle to draw, especially Keen and Barker, and they could probably still be improved. I hope it's clear that Keen is basically making a forward gesture. I originally wanted him to have a guns blazing look with stunners in both hands, but that was too tough to draw. I also included some possible props for the characters, like an ankh for Barker and an eye gadget for Spot.
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Armageddon Begins Again. The Alphamatic has arrived.

Atroxian Realm: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3536
The Alphamatic: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=4086

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