Wolfenstein New Order looks cliche and dumb and retcons Keen

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GalaxyEyesPhotonDragon
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Post by GalaxyEyesPhotonDragon »

ScarletFlame wrote:
GalaxyEyesPhotonDragon wrote:That, and Keen is pretty much dead to the developers (this is kind of noted in Doom 2)
I think it isn't just that.
If you read Masters of Doom, Adrian Carmack hated doing all of the sprite art in Keen, because he's really edgy and hates cute things. More than likely, Adrian put it in the game as a sort of revenge for enduring months of doing something he didn't like doing. Tom was no longer part of Id Software at that point.
Oiiii. :/

But even then there aren't any new developments for Keen, except from us.
(That said I hope we somehow revive Commander Keen eventually. Somehow... kinda want him to go big.)
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cyber zero
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Post by cyber zero »

There was a Commander Keen for Game boy color.
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Post by ScarletFlame »

cyber zero wrote:There was a Commander Keen for Game boy color.
That's true, but literally no one remembers that. I didn't know it existed until recently.
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Post by Levellass »

People don't remember a lot of things. Super Fighter Team did a Keen Dreams thing. I figure if Keen was truly dead they would have discarded the rights by now.

Look at all the revivals going on, Battleship got a movie? (Pixels is actually a thing?!) Right now I'm almost glad that nothing has happened.
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Post by GoldenRishi »

VikingBoyBilly wrote:
Levellass wrote:
mortimer wrote:No-one cares about Doom's story because Doom never cared about its story.
But it must have *some* story in the same way pornography doesn't just go straight to the bedroom. There has to be a guy arriving to check the plumbing or whatever. Surely the Doom series has some sort of narrative?
The first one does... after that, Tom left.
It's my opinion that Tom Hall and John Carmack were really the people who pushed Id to have valuable games/IP. After Tom Hall left, Id sort of lost focus and Carmack was able to continue doing technologically impressive things for a while, but their games just sucked because they lost the half of Id that actually made it's games/IP stand out above the pack. They were only able to do cool technological things, but even Quake was way less impressive (content-wise) than it could have been. The RPG-ish game mentioned in Keen 3 and the early development ideas of Quake sound WAY more interesting than what Quake actually was. For me, I have never really been interested in post-Tom Hall Id games, because that's the moment when you can, imo, cleanly diagnose that Id had lost it's way as a company.

I've never understood why people aren't loyal to the IP creators rather than the games. The creative directors are really the most important people in the final product, imo, although obviously the graphic artists, the programmers, and the musicians are also extremely important.
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Post by Levellass »

GoldenRishi wrote:I've never understood why people aren't loyal to the IP creators rather than the games. The creative directors are really the most important people in the final product, imo, although obviously the graphic artists, the programmers, and the musicians are also extremely important.
A good IP creator is a background figure, second to the experience that is their work. The work should stand on its own merits apart from what else has been done. Sadly this is seldom the case, Michael Bay directing? Movie's gonna suck. Stan Lee wrote that? Gonna be awesome. Heck, even in games that happens, usually with Nintendo creators, but Valve's been picking up a bit.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

Levellass wrote:
GoldenRishi wrote:I've never understood why people aren't loyal to the IP creators rather than the games. The creative directors are really the most important people in the final product, imo, although obviously the graphic artists, the programmers, and the musicians are also extremely important.
A good IP creator is a background figure, second to the experience that is their work. The work should stand on its own merits apart from what else has been done. Sadly this is seldom the case, Michael Bay directing? Movie's gonna suck. Stan Lee wrote that? Gonna be awesome. Heck, even in games that happens, usually with Nintendo creators, but Valve's been picking up a bit.
Nintendo's lost their way in the past decade. I hear on their internet that the "decline" started in the n64 era, but the gamecube games are when they really jumped the shark.

You know that infamous scene when Bowser Jr. is revealed? It's Mario's equivalent to the scene where Fonzie jumped the shark. It can never return to what it once was, but still gamers are oblivious to this and only see Sonic as the series that got of-track, as Sonic's gotten legitimately "bad" whereas mario just became "mundane."
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Post by Lava89 »

VikingBoyBilly wrote:Nintendo's lost their way in the past decade. I hear on their internet that the "decline" started in the n64 era, but the gamecube games are when they really jumped the shark.
I'd say Nintendo's decline really happened when they started to lose 3rd party developer support...this happened with the N64 when they went with cartridges; because 3rd party developers like to develop one game that will go on multiple systems. However, the Gamecube actually had most of the 3rd party games that were on the other systems. So if anything the Gamecube saved Nintendo from themselves, in a sense.

I'd argue it really happened with the Wii, because Nintendo went out of their way to market themselves towards one gamer demographic-- the casual gamers, which lost them support from the majority of the gaming public and developers. It's gotten even worse with the Wii U, because the casuals were keeping the Wii afloat, for the most part, but all Nintendo has now are the hard core Ninty fans.

But it's not like they're now putting out games that the hard core wanted on the Wii. At least with the Wii we got another Metroid Prime title and both Mario Galaxies. For the Wii U we got Mario 3D Land repackaged as a console title with some multiplayer and at e3 2015 Nintendo showed off Metroid Federation Force, which basically looks like shovelware with Metroid slapped on it.

We're also getting Star Fox Zero, which from the trailer looks like the Star Fox 64 remake from the 3DS, now just with some motion controls and bump mapping. They even dropped the ball on a new F-Zero game. They also mentioned a new Nintendo console but won't say anything about it, which doesn't help potential Wii U owners if they'll just get the rug pulled from underneath them. Fans are not even convinced that the next Zelda will be on the Wii U.

So in a nutshell. Nintendo has gotten gradually worse over the years. The Wii U is the latest example of that, because all they have left are hard core Nintendo fans, but they're not really putting out great hard core titles. At least the Gamecube had that going for it.
VikingBoyBilly wrote:You know that infamous scene when Bowser Jr. is revealed? It's Mario's equivalent to the scene where Fonzie jumped the shark. It can never return to what it once was
I agree that Sunshine had its fair share of weird moments, but Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 totally made up for that.

Instead I'd argue that Nintendo is killing Mario with all of the milking they've been doing. New Mario Bros Wii was repackaged as a Wii U title at launch and they just came out with Mario Maker, but honestly, something like that should've been released at launch instead and not sold for $60. Then of course, as mentioned above, everyone was expecting something like Mario Galaxy for the Wii U, but they gave us a repackaged 3DS title.
VikingBoyBilly wrote: [gamers] only see Sonic as the series that got of-track, as Sonic's gotten legitimately "bad" whereas mario just became "mundane."
Well, I'd argue Sonic only truly lost his way with Sonic 06 but picked things back up with Colors and Generations. Though he has had a fair share of terrible spin off games.
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Post by VikingBoyBilly »

Lava89 wrote:
VikingBoyBilly wrote:You know that infamous scene when Bowser Jr. is revealed? It's Mario's equivalent to the scene where Fonzie jumped the shark. It can never return to what it once was
I agree that Sunshine had its fair share of weird moments, but Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 totally made up for that.

Instead I'd argue that Nintendo is killing Mario with all of the milking they've been doing. New Mario Bros Wii was repackaged as a Wii U title at launch and they just came out with Mario Maker, but honestly, something like that should've been released at launch instead and not sold for $60. Then of course, as mentioned above, everyone was expecting something like Mario Galaxy for the Wii U, but they gave us a repackaged 3DS title.
That's usually what happens when something's been popular and alive long enough to jump the shark. The milking starts sometime before the jump and that goes mostly unnoticed, then after the jump the franchise continues getting milked and it's no longer endearing, but a blatant cash cow.

The example off the top of my head that comes to mind is Rugrats, when they renewed the series and started adding new characters like Dill and... whatever Chuckie's step-sister's name is. (When a character that was supposed to be a new and exciting addition to the cast is so forgettable, that's kind of a problem). It's continued popularity and desire to shake up the formula led to All Grown Up, which ultimately killed the franchise. Nickelodeon seems to have learned from this mistake not to mess with the formula of their most popular show by keeping Spongebob virtually unchanged in it's... is it in it's 11th season now? Not so with Fairly Oddparents, which has ironically stagnated from crossovers with Jimmy Newtron, a live action movie set in the future, a fairy baby and fairy dog added to the cast (Where's the fairy dog in the future movie? Oops.) and a new character to be introduced in the next series who Timmy will be forced to share his fairies with.

Scooby Doo went through celebrity guest stars, Scrappy, crappy live action movies and less crappy (but not exactly great) animated movies of them traveling the world, and weird obscure stuff involving real ghosts and magic and shaggy turning into a werewolf (which all happened before Zombie Island which was touted to be the first Scooby story with real monsters, btw). That's still alive because Hannah Barabara have multiple other properties to fall back on and somehow always reach a big enough audience to stay lucrative. Nintendo is on it's way to a slow demise due to limiting their consumer base and refusing to acknowledge their competitors. I think the best way to go is to capitalize on their one product that's on the top - Nintendo 3DS - and make the NX a portable handheld system THAT'S NOT TRYING TO FORCE GIMMICKS LIKE THEIR LAST TWO MAIN CONSOLES WERE.

Sonic has suffered from Rugrats and Fairly Oddparents syndrome while Mario more or less has Spongebob syndrome. Satoru Iwata's death was sad for everyone, the man saved Earthbound for crying out loud, and Miyamoto's resigning, but there's some home this new president will try to get more 3rd party support and start some new 1rst party IPs instead of relying on their old habits like a crutch that's been slowly killing them.

Maybe? I think the saddest thing about this is I don't really care all that much anymore. Now if the NX really is what I want with a spanking amazing new pokemon generation as a launch title, well, I'd be excited about that. They said they were going to try to reach the mobile market with it, so I'm hoping there's a good chance it is the sequel to the 3Ds and NOT a descendant of their wii consoles.

Were we talking about something not nintendo related in this thread?
:confused
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Post by Lava89 »

VikingBoyBilly wrote:Were we talking about something not nintendo related in this thread?
:confused
I thought this thread about decrying the decline of video gaming as a whole?
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Post by Levellass »

Right, so Nintendo.



The problem is that you can't really quit while you're ahead. When something good first starts out fans want more. More can be done, epic tales can be told, things have to be wrapped up. Stop now and you have a Firefly situation, fans that bemoan all that never was.

When something *is* wrapped up perfectly, well again fans will want more. Sure it's satisfying to see a completed something, but it's just been getting better and better up to that point. The perfect place to stop for the series is the worst place from a moneymaking perspective.

So many things continue on, milking the fanbase they've gained. As that goes on fans are shed and money is made up until the point where the fanbase is exhausted and the franchise disliked. (See: Terminator whateveritisnow.)

So it's pretty much inevitable than anything you love will be pounded into the ground for cheap cash.
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Post by BlueGasMask »

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The new Wolfenstein game looks pretty good actually
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