Mods being too hard

[VikingBoyBilly]

The unfortunate thing about Keen Galaxy is that there is very little to reward exploration other than points, extra lives, and ammo (the first two are rather meaningless anyway). For this reason, I prefer to give the illusion of exploration while really guiding the player through everything I want them to experience. If most of a level is optional, then what motivation will the player really have to experience all the cool stuff you've designed?

Easter eggs, that's what. Save Spot exemplifies that making every map an easter egg hunt motivates players to explore every inch of the levels and turns the tedium into something more fun and interesting than finding hidden points and lives.

[Ceilick]

Some really thoughtful statements from Capnclever,

The problem often isn't the difficulty of a particular challenge, but that the player must succeed at all of them without failing a single one

Sometimes one additional obstacle doesn't seem like a lot, but they add up fast and it's that much more bothersome to try again.

Essentially, when obstacles lead to death, level designers need to ask the question "How many times do I want the player to replay this level" and see that each and every hazard is an opportunity to make the player do this at least once. Then recognize that some kinds of obstacles are the type which are going to kill the player multiple times--these, I would guess, are obstacles that rely on the player's skills or which require very specific timing.

When obstacles don't lead to death, level designers need to see how they can still be hard or frustrating:

Stuff like backtracking and "macro puzzles" can weigh on a player fast, so keeping them to a minimum per level is probably for the best as well.

This said, I think the simplest way to decrease the difficulty of a given level is to just make smaller maps (or, ignoring that, make the path from start to finish smaller, and focus the map's length on either non-linear pathing or bonus detours).

Players want to feel they're getting somewhere, and, all things equal, making progress in a single level is never going to feel as good as completing one level and starting another. Splitting one large, hard level, into two smaller ones, seems, just better. And, barring that, as Capnclever mentions, focusing on more areas that aren't necessary to win.

Which brings us to Gridlock's question,

The unfortunate thing about Keen Galaxy is that there is very little to reward exploration other than points, extra lives, and ammo (the first two are rather meaningless anyway)...If most of a level is optional, then what motivation will the player really have to experience all the cool stuff you've designed?

VBB is somewhat on the right track with the idea of easter eggs, but going less specific, just giving the player something 'cool' to see. Sometimes this is something unique and specific, like the slug statue in Keen 4, sometimes it's as simple as a really scenic , idyllic, screenshot-worthy arrangement of tiles.

Think about level 2 of Keen 4, slug village. Take a moment to visualize some of it's areas from memory, then take a look here: http://www.shikadi.net/wiki/keen/images ... k4lv02.png There are a couple of non essential areas of this level, the big ones being the lower left corner, and the lower right corner. Both these areas feature something completely unique in the level: fire, goplat and switch, and donuts on the left, a mad mushroom on the right.

Speaking for myself, I don't usually go into these areas when playing this level, but they're places I've been and hold a firmer place in my memory than areas of the main path. Areas like these can leave a deeper impression on the player, I think, than areas the player has to play through.

Transitioning to something entirely different:

Galaxy games, however, tend to assume you can save anywhere, because the number of real challenges per level are far greater...When I played Battle of the Brains, I liked the challenge, but I REALLY would have liked there to be midpoints somehow: most of them were way too long to do in a single shot.

This, I think, exemplifies why simply being able to save whenever you want is not a fix-all solution to level design and difficulty. Level design shouldn't have to rely on saving, on a consistent basis at least.

[GoldenRishi]

Funnily enough, the original keen 1 is probably the only one that got a perfect grasp of making fun difficulty. Even keens 2 and 3 were getting into the BattleToads Hard territory at some points.

Interesting. I would say that Keen 3 was f'ing hard, but I'll have to replay it again.

I've been watching Angry Video Game Nerd (Well, actually, James & Mike Mondays) where they play a lot of old school games and talk about difficulty. I don't remember Keen being a particularly difficult game until the final boss of Keen 3 (which I did beat with no cheats, although that was psychotically difficult), but I always felt like Keen was a "fair" hard, rather than games like Battle Toads (which I've only seen people play), that seems like an "unfair" hard (i.e. difficult due to glitches, poor programming, bad level design, enemies with too much health, etc). For me the hardest level in a platforming game that I can think of is Rayman (the first one for the PC and Play Station) Pencil Pentathalon for the PC. They screwed something up and made it basically luck to get through the level (they changed the level for the later GBA re-release)

I also haven't played many Keen mods (The last mod I remember playing was those Keen 7-9, and I think at the time I thought I Ceilick as a new member.... But I've been on here since 2001 or so), so I wonder how I'd fair on them.

[Reactor]

Compared to the likes of AVGN Adventures or Syobon Action, they're still easy as 1-2-3.

[VikingBoyBilly]

I always felt like Keen was a "fair" hard, rather than games like Battle Toads (which I've only seen people play), that seems like an "unfair" hard (i.e. difficult due to glitches, poor programming, bad level design, enemies with too much health, etc).

Not so. Battletoads is fairin the sense that you can blast through it with memorization (except when the level 10 glitch happens and you have to reset).

Unfair hard would be the technodrome in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles 1. I've never beaten it. And fighting bowser in Tetris Attack. And anything that just comes to pure chance and lucky guesses.

[GoldenRishi]

I always felt like Keen was a "fair" hard, rather than games like Battle Toads (which I've only seen people play), that seems like an "unfair" hard (i.e. difficult due to glitches, poor programming, bad level design, enemies with too much health, etc).

Not so. Battletoads is fairin the sense that you can blast through it with memorization (except when the level 10 glitch happens and you have to reset).

That's fair, I suppose, but I find games where you just repeat the same thing over and over again until it's programmed into your muscles to be boring as all fucl. That's ultimately why Super Meat Boy eventually grated on my nerves.

[DaVince]

I always felt like Keen was a "fair" hard, rather than games like Battle Toads (which I've only seen people play), that seems like an "unfair" hard (i.e. difficult due to glitches, poor programming, bad level design, enemies with too much health, etc).

Not so. Battletoads is fairin the sense that you can blast through it with memorization (except when the level 10 glitch happens and you have to reset).

That's fair, I suppose, but I find games where you just repeat the same thing over and over again until it's programmed into your muscles to be boring as all fucl. That's ultimately why Super Meat Boy eventually grated on my nerves.

This. I prefer skill over memorization.

[Reactor]

Well nowadayz when gaming entered the mainstream, the developers thought it might be a good idea to make games easier so they'll sell better. Which of course, garg. I'm surprised 'bout the ridiculous easyness of many games...press any key to win...sheesh. At least they could give us multiple difficulty choices or sumthin', but making everythin' easy is the worst idea...I literally need to hunt for harder games, such as AVGN Adventures.

[GoldenRishi]

I don't know. I think it depends on what you get out of video games. I don't want to feel endlessly frustrated or challenged. I like a bit of challenge so it feels like I've actually accomplished something, and I want to feel like I'm actually gaining skills at something and progressing. So for me, atmospheric explorers with platforming, puzzles, and enemies are the most fun experience.

In my opinion, this is always why I liked Commander Keen. It's fun to blast things, it's fun to look for new items, but really what makes something good is how it introduces you to a world where you can explore and have fun being in.


PS: In theory this is why I liked Fez, but the overly non-linear structure of the connections between the levels I found confusing and annoying; warping would have been a perfect solution. Also I found it monotonous to find fifty billion of the same things. I found it tedious to collect the 120-something stars in Super Mario 64, but finding hundreds upon hundreds of the golden cubes in a world that was confusing to explore... Meh. It would have been better if there'd been a main portal world that you could have warped to at any time, and connected the other areas/worlds. But anyways, I digress. Also, enemies make a game exciting, and make you focus back on the world.

[Levellass]

Modern gamers vs old game, what will happen? http://www.nintendofeed.com/2013/05/fea ... t-for.html

[VikingBoyBilly]

y cant metroid crawl?